Why PRIMA is different: a restorative neuroprosthetic

47:28primo system. It's a new paradigm in vision restoration. It is restoring things. Okay, it's got two primary parts. There's an internal component. There's a tiny tiny photovoltaic implant. Okay, it's a little um cluster of neuro implants, right? It's it's it's a tiny little electronic device at the end of the day that goes in the back of your head, okay? And it surgically gets placed in the back of your retina, in the back of your eye. And then there's an external component which is specialized GA glasses with a video camera. And what that video camera is going to do is project light through your eye

48:09>> to that implant >> in the back of your retina >> and stimulate that implant to create electrical signals >> to trick your eye into thinking your photo receptors are still alive. >> That's that's okay. So the idea is you have this two-part system. >> Yeah. >> Which is effectively mimicking the real effect of photons hitting the back of the retina. But because all the the stuff in the macula is is now dead, we're not like regenerating the cells itself, but we are creating a synthetic version of the exact same input >> such that when it goes into your brain,

48:50it's receiving an identical signal to what you would in a natural sense, but in an artificial >> very it's like simple but at the same time extremely hard to do obviously because it hasn't been done yet. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's only being done because of today's technology. So now let's get into let's get first let's tackle the implant. Okay. What is the thing that is going in the back of your eye? Okay. >> It's a 2 nanometer by 2 nanome little chip. Okay. 30 microns thick. It's a silicon chip. It's a pixel array of 378 different independent hexagonal chip pixels. 2 nanome by 2 nanome. It's way way smaller than a penny. It's like it's

49:31like, you know, uh smaller than even Lincoln's. It's like the size of Lincoln's eye >> on the on the penny in the in the Lincoln memorial >> in the Yeah. That's how small this thing is. >> Small. >> Each of the pixels, there's 378 pixels. Each of those pixels has a little mini solar panel and an electrode. Now, you're thinking, why solar panels? Well, solar panels create electricity out of light. Mhm. >> Now I've created electricity from the light that is going in into my eye. I don't need an external battery or anything like that. >> I'm so mad.

50:11>> That is I thought that was so cool, dude. >> So genius. >> I thought that was so cool. >> That which matters because a lot of times you can even use phones as an example. A lot of the weight that goes into the phone is the battery. >> This is the first one that is wireless. The reason why it's wireless is because they use this photovoltaic cell. >> That makes sense, >> right? >> That's genius. >> And I think that's so genius. >> Yeah, like there's an electrode and that electrode is what's actually creating the electric field to then tag all the other neurons in the retina to make it seem like >> right there is a photo receptor there. There's a rotten cone there. >> But the the energy for that electricity

50:53is coming from the photon itself. And it makes sense because your eyes are anyway, >> right? >> Yeah. That's smart. >> That's so smart. >> That's very smart. I like that. >> That's so smart. I love that. And and as soon as I saw it, I was like, "Oh, that's >> that's dope. >> That's dope. That's good." >> Yeah. And so what they do is they take this little chip 2 nanome by 2 nanome and they put it under the retina. Okay. This is deliberate where the electrodes are in proximity to the bipolar cells. So it's it's where the it's where the photo receptors would be. And there you can see on the left you've got a giant patch of where the photo receptors have died. You're putting that chip right underneath

51:34>> Mhm. >> where those photo receptors should be. >> Mhm. >> Okay. And that chip is now going to stimulate those bipolar cells which will then in turn stimulate the ganglen cells which will then go all the way to the back of your brain. Right? It's natural. It's efficiently processed signal and it's more sophisticated than these older retinal implants that were stimulating the ganglen cells that were directly going into the brain. These guys are mimicking the photo receptors >> itself. Yeah. Yeah. You see? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> It's so it's so nice, dude. >> That I >> I love that. And what I what I love about this as well is that the the the pixel has a has a input. So that's where

52:17the source of the electric field like the the source of the current but it's also got a sync >> because if you don't have a sync then then you put a lot of current out that current is going to spread out and it's going to it's it's going to trigger all the rest of the cells everywhere else in the retina. But if you have a sync then it becomes localized. The current goes out it triggers the stuff in its neighborhood and it goes back in. >> It becomes for like more it becomes discreet. >> Yes. Exactly. >> Exactly. So now your pixel size, right, for like what I'm trying to see, that becomes smaller. >> They've thought of it. They've thought of everything, mate. It's really nice, right? Okay. So that's the implant. >> Now, let's get into the outside. Right.

52:58There needs to be something that actually goes and puts light to that chip that's in the back of your retina. Yes. Right. And that's where these glasses come in. So there's a user interface. There's a smart component. You put on these glasses. You also have a user interface. like it's kind of like a remote >> and that's your user interface that um you can like zoom in, >> zoom out. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can adjust the contrast and things like that. And then and then your your your glasses, they've got a little video camera, kind of like the meta glasses, you know, the meta glasses have a video camera. And those that those glasses then send in near infrared

53:39signals to the back of your >> retina, which is where the chip is. Why near infrared? Well, all the other natural photo receptors in your eye are not sensitive to near infrared. >> Uh, >> right? If you were sending invisible stuff, then you'd be blinded. by like a giant like flashlight that's like right next to your eye. But because it's near infrared, the only thing that is getting stimulated is the chip. >> The chip itself. That's that's actually that's really good. No, that's that's that's really good. >> It's so nice. >> That that's I'm I'm >> right. >> Yeah. Yeah.

54:19>> You're seeing why I was like excited about this. This is so cool. I I I just I I'm like I don't have anything to say cuz it's just it's it's so good. >> It's so good. Like they thought of it, right? And the fact that it doesn't have any cables. Like usually these things used to come with cables, but the fact that it doesn't have any cables simplifies the surgery. So you can go in to the corner of your eye. I mean, it's still a crazy surgery. I'll be honest. like you're going in with a needle in the the corner of your eye, but you're depositing it in the back of your eye. But it's a relatively simple surgery because all you do is you stick it in, you leave the little bit of chip where you want it to be, and then you take the you you take the the needle out, right? >> And it's it's it's it's actually

54:59incredible. The this chip efficiently absorbs 30 microns of silicon photo dodes, right? It's it's it's 30 microns of silicon photo dodes. You get this pulse light that's coming in at 30 Hz. And 30 Hz is you must know 30 Hz is about where um film >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> uh frame rate is. And that's because the ganglen cells that are going to the back of your head, right, that are relaying this information, >> anything faster than 30 Hz and it's really not discernible. Anything slower and it would look like stop motion. So, at 30 Hz, you're getting this flicker-free image. >> Yes. >> Of pulse light that's going in.

55:40>> This is really clever, >> bro. It's so cool. >> This is really really because they sort of because you have to both solve for the like technical imp. So, there's a variety of stages of this process, right? There's the actual like where in the eye do you make the intervention in order to get the restorative benefit. They made that sort of innovation by putting it in that like where the cones and rods are. >> Yeah. >> Then you have to think about how do you do how do you get power? >> Yeah. >> Then that's the solar piece. >> That's the Yeah. You made a solar cell >> which so brilliant. Then you have to think about like how are you actually going to turn it on? Meaning like how like how are you going to direct the light to make it actually work the way you want it to

56:20>> but not affect >> but not affect everything else. And so the near infrared as the methodology to do so is so genius. >> Yeah, dude. Oh man, that's so good. So good. That's quite That's quite nice. >> It's so nice. That's quite nice. Yeah, it's so nice. >> And let's talk about the study itself that came out in the New England Journal of Medicine, right? It's a multic-enter, so 17 sites across five European countries. You mentioned the University of Bond. I I mentioned them specifically because they kind of did a lot of the the groundwork, but a a bunch of other European institutions were part of the clinical trial, right? >> Sure. Sure. >> But you're increasing generalizability because of these 17 different places are

57:00trying it >> because people culturally genetically you want to have it spread across a variet. >> Exactly. Yeah. So 38 participants all of them over the age of 60 and all of them confirmed um atrophy in both eyes. Right. >> And what they looked at was something called the log mar which is the logarithm of minimal angle of resolution. It's effectively saying like in the center of your field of vision like how how big >> can you see things? It's it's this thing. It's the it's the letters and the driving test. You know, when you go to the DMV and you're like, "Okay, can you see or are you blind?" >> Those letters tell you how small of a letter you can discern. >> What line can you see on this one?

57:42>> Bro, I mean, the screen is pretty small, but I think I can see that. But but but in any case these guys after 12 month follow-up after after getting the after getting the implant >> 81% so 26 out of the 32 participants met the end point. >> Highly significant >> and it's equivalent to five lines worth of stuff. 20 59 more letters than they could have originally in that eye test. you know, I mean, this is this is such a huge I mean, we talk about this all the time, which is like why, you know, um this these studies are so

58:23important like the unlock that you get from something like this um for a huge population of people who otherwise we're just going to lose the ability to see >> Yeah. >> permanently. >> Yeah. >> Is now no longer like necessarily true. >> Yeah. Dude, there was one dude who went from legal blindness to like I can drive now. >> That's crazy. >> I mean, that's one dude, but still like >> and and this is like stage this is V1. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. This is V1. >> It's it's the first iteration of this um in which you now have I think that the the innovation is in like all the kind

59:03of steps we just talked about because now you can iterate on each of those component parts for any number of different >> Exactly. computations or use cases etc. Exactly. That's a really really interesting. >> It's really cool. I mean there were detractors like if you looked at user satisfaction 69% so 22 out of the 32 reported medium to high overall satisfaction which it's still like if you weren't able to see and now you're able to see like that's 30% being like I'm not satisfied. And I looked into more of that. I think part of that is because of these things called serious adverse events that happen at the end of any surgery. Like you're look, you're

59:43you're sticking a needle into someone's eye and you're putting in a chip. Like there's going to be serious adverse events, right? And most of the stuff had to do with the trauma and healing from the surgery, >> not from the actual >> not from the actual device. Right. So if we can make that that process better, >> perhaps this can be a lot >> better. Yeah. satisfaction can be higher right? >> Which makes sense. That that does make sense. >> But at the end of the day, I think like this prima is is a quantum leap in terms of retinal implants. Like before we used to the first FDA approved um retinal imp implant was something called the Argus 2. >> Okay. >> Which had 60 electrodes. >> That was the that was this image I just

1:00:24pulled up earlier. >> Yeah. And that was that was wired though, >> right? You can see it coming out of the >> Yeah. Yeah. And and you could see that like in the retina itself there's a little like wire that like Right. This thing is just complete. It's just a chip naked on its own. >> Wireless. >> Wireless, dude. >> Wireless. No battery. >> No battery. >> It's just a photovoltaic cell. >> It's This is It's so clever. >> It's so clever, dude. And what what they're doing next, you talked about how this is just the beginning, right? These these pixels are about 100 microns in size. They're trying to get get it down to 220 micron. >> 20 micron pixels from 100 microns. So

1:01:04now we'll be able to fit 10,000 pixels instead of the previous 378. So now I'll get I'll be able to get as much fidelity as I do now, >> which is And again, now it's become an engineering problem, which is like much easier to deal with. >> Yes. Yes. >> Like like I'll take an engineering problem all day. >> Yes. Yes. 20 microns, right? That's that's about the size of the rods and cones themselves, right? You're now starting to to get to the limit the biology was getting to. Obviously, there's going to be challenges, right? You can't smaller pixel size means that the electric field penetration to the upper layers of that retina is going to be not as good. So, maybe you need these

1:01:443D electrode structures, right? Where you have like pillars, right, where the the the pixel is like this and you've got a pillar that injects electricity into the upper layers of the retina. But again, engineering problem >> engineering problem which which is infinitely more solvable >> than going from zero to one. >> Mhm. >> Um >> I mean this thing is like decades in the making, you know. >> But it's working and just it's so clever. I loved it. >> Yeah. No, this that that's really >> it took a while to get access to the the paper. It was in New England Journal of >> Medicine. I don't know why you guys Yeah. I I don't want to pay like I think it was like a hundred. I'll be honest. I

1:02:25think it was like a $100. So, I I asked a friend of mine who who is a doctor >> who does research and I need you to Yeah. I need you to give me a PDF. We're trying to We're trying to give you guys some traffic here, okay? We're trying to give some promo. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, free free advertising >> on the first principal pod. We'll we'll do deep dives on the stories and like honestly like give like good good understanding because a lot of times again like for the average person it's hard to really like parse and decipher what's actually happening in these stories and like what the implications are and what what's like the real world >> you know meaning >> and the real world meaning for this is >> like a big deal. Yeah, this is a big

1:03:06deal, right? Like now imagine in the future. Right now I'm thinking you can you can bring AI into it. >> Of course, >> right? You could have like the the the Iron Man thing where like the thing automatically zooms so you don't have to press a button to zoom. It'll just know what you're looking at and zoom in like >> Yep. No, I mean this it kind of like ties to the first story we had around the how AI is now being used for cancer detection. I mean there's going to be clever ways in which to implement it in this context. I mean you're you know there's all this stuff I mean these implants and these things you know we've talked about Neurolink before on the pod now we're having these retinal implants um you know there is a bottleneck around

1:03:46the surgery process itself like we're still you know meat >> you know we're still meat sacks and so that's still a bottleneck. >> Yep. >> It's still a bottleneck. Yeah. >> And it's going to be for a while. for a while. But we're we're getting we're getting into real interesting places. I mean, as someone who already has bad vision, you know, my you know, my wife has bad vision, too. She actually has I didn't do LASIC or anything. I just wear contacts and glasses, >> but her vision was so bad that at the time like LASIC wasn't good enough for her eyes. So, she got the implanted contact lens. >> Oh. >> Like like in her in her eye. >> Wow. >> Which is like And I was like, they could

1:04:27do that. >> That's crazy. you can do >> and this was like 15 years, you know, whatever ago. This was a while ago. >> Um, and at the time it was state-ofthe-art and this and that and yada yada, >> but I mean this is like orders of magnitude >> more difficult than just just just embedding a contact lens, you know, in the eye. >> Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. >> Yeah, I thought that was such a >> That's a great story. That is a great great story. Um, it it gives me hope that if I start getting blind later in life, there's still a chance. >> Yeah, there's still a chance. There's still a chance. So, you're saying there's a chance. >> You're saying there's a chance. >> We're going to end with our story number three, which is our story about

1:05:08or related to at least unidentified anomalous phenomenon, which is more commonly known as UFOs. And before we kind of get into the two papers themselves, I kind of wanted to set the table a little bit because this is a subject and you know an issue that is extremely popular not only in the US but globally um and has in recent years gotten a boost because of a variety of events that have been happening particularly within the apparatus of the US government intelligence and military industrial complex structures. >> Yeah. >> And you know, this is a subject I've talked to you about a lot.

1:05:48>> Yeah. You're very passionate about it. >> Uh it's something that I I have I have interest in. I I work at a nonprofit that's working in this space, the Disclosure Foundation. And one of the things that people always get caught up on is origin. And what I would ask is that we we sort of keep origin to the side for a second in this conversation. um and just talk about what is without trying to ascribe an origin to because these are all things that are happening regardless of what you want to ascribe the origin to. >> Um and it's interesting regardless of what the origin is. >> And so I'm going to do a quick retrospective on kind of the recent history of the UAP subject.

1:06:28>> Um that is is the context in which these two papers are coming out. And so for many people, uh, they're probably familiar with the 2017 New York Times article that came out that basically talked about the fact that there's these US government programs that are stud studying UFOs that have existed for some time. >> Um, and that was sort of the catalyst for the modern era. This subject has a long history prior to that. Uh, that is outside of the scope of this episode. >> Yeah. And so we're not going to touch on sort of the, you know, the what I call the the legacy era of the subject. Um, but after that New York Times article

1:07:09came out in 2017, it contained three videos. This was the first time we're getting videos with chain of custody from the US government that were showing these anomalous objects. Right. >> Okay. But it was still only put out by the New York Times, which people will have different differing opinions about the quality of that institution as a newspaper. Uh that's changed since that time period. But the Pentagon actually confirmed that the what are cloally known as the Gimble, Fleer, and Go Fast videos are legitimate videos that have chain of custody to the US government. That happened between 2017 and 2019.

1:07:49What sort of proceeded from there was an escalation of the issue from a national security perspective. So in 2020, the then Senate Intel minority leader Marco Rubio, who is now the national security adviser Oh yeah. in the Trump administration uh was one of several senators who called for there to be an unclassified report to be created uh by the department of defense around >> what are what are these UAP what is this unidentified anomalous phenomena in 2021 the office of the director of national

1:08:30intelligence delivered that report uh in which they stated that there were 143 unexplained cases uh that you know again this was largely driven by Navy and other pilots basically saying look this is a safety of flight issue and we need to like be able to report and address this just for our day-to-day operations right >> again independent of origin or any of these other issues the DoD then created you know this UAP task force which was this sort of temporary task force that went out to both the uh intelligence agencies and the military uh sort of apparatus to try to understand are is

1:09:12are are you all seeing this? Where are you seeing this stuff? What is going on here? >> That eventually now rolled into what we now know as this permanent Pentagon office that's called the uh all domain anomaly resolution office that was established in 2022. Um, and that office was congressionally mandated to be created after that initial report came out because Congress is basically alleging that the executive branch, which runs the intelligence agencies and the military, are not providing them the information about what's happening as it relates to this subject specifically.

1:09:53And it's important to note that the term UAP is a specific term of art that does not include any other form of unmanned aerial systems. So this is drones, this is you know undersea unmanned like those are all discrete and defined and there's processes we have to deal with that. The reason why this became an issue within the government is that these platforms were exhibiting flight characteristics or behaviors that were beyond the scope of what was deemed as current or even next generation technologies. This has then been

1:10:33followed up by multiple hearings within the House and the Senate on this issue and has culminated with legislation that part of which was passed uh that was proposed in initially in 2023 but then passed in 2024 that mandated that executive agencies release information around the history of this subject. I mean, there's literally a a colloquy between Senator Schumer, who was the then Senate Majority Leader for the Democrats, and Senator Mike Rounds, who's a Republican, >> where they were sort of going back and forth, >> identifying that, you know, that this is something that has been an ongoing issue

1:11:15that Congress has been going after and the executive branch has been unwilling to provide information on. So, this is sort of a live issue. NASA had a UAP independent study group. They put out their own report around this issue. Um they are obviously struggling for funding. So that it's not something that they're spending money on because they're trying to just survive as it is. >> Yeah. >> There's been multiple whistleblower protections that have been passed. There's been defunding of UAP programs for the intelligence community. I mean there's this long list of indirect evidence around this subject but there's been a der of scientific research.

1:11:55>> Yes. Really the main primary thing that has existed in this space particularly in the last couple of years have been research papers that have been trying to define how to study this subject because of the reproducibility problem and the stigma both of which are big issues and the the reference point that has been addressed is like multime messenger astronomy studies has been the reference point for how to try to deal with this problem. But there are two papers that have just come out that are a first of its kind in terms of having actual data that again can be potentially either

1:12:36reproduced or replicated in other arenas from the Palomar Sky Survey and we're going to kind of go in from a first principles perspective to understand what these papers actually were talking about. >> Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lead author Dr. Beatrice Villa Royale. >> Vill Royale. Yes. >> Villa Royale. >> Yes. >> I hope I'm saying that right. >> Yes. >> So the lead author, Dr. Beatrice Villa Royale, um she actually covered this